Curse

Tragedy_Strikes · Sep 04, 2007, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Bloodstone

$40 buys the game, not the complete UAX pack. Every game in existence requires some effort to be put in for the rewards - from FPS, RTS through RPG and MMO it's one of the fundamental concepts of gaming.

Well for one, asking for less grind isn't asking for a game where everything is handed to you on a silver platter.

It wouldn't be a problem to me if, while playing through the storyline, I could earn enough points for rank 5 in the titles, but that is not the case.

Had the game been advertised saying, "You can get 40 new armor sets, but, you'll have to spend ~10-20 hours bored out of your mind grinding the same area over and over again." then I wouldn't have bothered buying it.

I was under the assumption that games were supposed to be "fun." Grinding for the few armor sets I do like, isn't that fun at all.

If this is the route ArenaNet plans to take with GW2 then I know now that I won't be buying it, especially with all of the other online games coming out that look good.

Blkout · Sep 04, 2007, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyper.nl

Please, for the kittens, stop crying about this light grind. The titles are fair enough and are nothing compared to PvP ranks, FoW requirements and Kurz./Lux. allegiance ranks.

You don't get everything for free here. If you want the armor, go work for it. Take the time if you don't want to grind. Just get the points by playing through quests under the blessings. If that's too much to ask, go with one of the standard armor sets from Prophecies, Factions or Nightfall.

There is more to rank than just armor. Did everyone completely forget about the dozens of new PvE skills? I know I sure didn't and grinding sucks!

Diablo™ · Sep 04, 2007, 01:28 AM // 01:28

We did not forget about the dozens of new PvE skills, in fact we've been using them. At rank 3 or 4, they're already very effective. They may not be as powerful as rank9, but then again, nobody is suppose to become "elite" overnight.

Omega X · Sep 04, 2007, 01:56 AM // 01:56

If grind was fun, no one would be complaining much if at all. But here we are with titles to grind to get whatever the factions are hoarding. Sure you can do the story like normal, but its not that long and it takes atleast rank 4 for anything special.

The title grind was a bit different in Nightfall since by the time you get to Vabbi, the Sunspear Rank was very high and the Lightbringer rank was usable by the time you got to the Realm Of Torment.

Honestly I've played games with waaaay more grind than this, but its the same almost wherever you go. Grind is just not fun when its obvious and mundane. And it can be insult to injury when you work so hard to get to something that isn't all that it was cracked up to be(Dungeon loot).

So there are pretty much two options, Find another game to play(lots of blockbusters just came out), or set a goal while you are out grinding a title to take your mind off of it. The way I do it is to explore corners of a map that I've never been to. The grind usually happens on the way there.

Diablo™ · Sep 04, 2007, 02:19 AM // 02:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omega X

If grind was fun, no one would be complaining much if at all. But here we are with titles to grind to get whatever the factions are hoarding. Sure you can do the story like normal, but its not that long and it takes atleast rank 4 for anything special.

The title grind was a bit different in Nightfall since by the time you get to Vabbi, the Sunspear Rank was very high and the Lightbringer rank was usable by the time you got to the Realm Of Torment.

Honestly I've played games with waaaay more grind than this, but its the same almost wherever you go. Grind is just not fun when its obvious and mundane. And it can be insult to injury when you work so hard to get to something that isn't all that it was cracked up to be(Dungeon loot).

So there are pretty much two options, Find another game to play(lots of blockbusters just came out), or set a goal while you are out grinding a title to take your mind off of it. The way I do it is to explore corners of a map that I've never been to. The grind usually happens on the way there.

The problem is that it's only been 4 days, and people are trying to achieve ranks that are obviously beyond them for the time being. There is nothing wrong with being at rank 3 or 2, or even rank 1 at this moment... it's just that people have been making this race-for-top-tier-titles their only goal, going out there and killing the same mobs over and over again, feeling the grind more than ever when they should just do the quests and follow the story.

If they come back in 3 weeks, and still complaint about not being able to achieve rank 3, THEN maybe it is a grind...

cellardweller · Sep 04, 2007, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

The problem is that it's only been 4 days, and people are trying to achieve ranks that are obviously beyond them for the time being. There is nothing wrong with being at rank 3 or 2, or even rank 1 at this moment... it's just that people have been making this race-for-top-tier-titles their only goal, going out there and killing the same mobs over and over again, feeling the grind more than ever when they should just do the quests and follow the story.

If they come back in 3 weeks, and still complaint about not being able to achieve rank 3, THEN maybe it is a grind...

4 days or 10weeks won't change the fact that my ranger has completed every single quest in the game and still has slayer of nightmares. He's completed every non-grind activity so his title won't go up any further, hence he'll never see the armourer and his skills will always be half as effective. My second and third characters through the game will have the same problem. Skill over time indeed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hallomik

Is there a way to get fissure without repeating some action?

Perfectly achievable by just farming the rare material trader, you don't even need to trade with players.

Diablo™ · Sep 04, 2007, 02:48 AM // 02:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

4 days or 10weeks won't change the fact that my ranger has completed every single quest in the game and still has slayer of nightmares. He's completed every non-grind activity so his title won't go up any further, hence he'll never see the armourer and his skills will always be half as effective. My second and third characters through the game will have the same problem. Skill over time indeed.

You either forgot to pick up some bounties on the way or had a runner. I'm barely halfway through and I'm already at the same rank as you, and I skipped alot of side quests as well. That is unless you have higher reputations with other race. It's just highly unlikely that you can complete every single quests/mission/dungeon for the norns and pick up all your bounties on the way and still end up with less than rank 5.

As for second characters, this issue is no different than Sunspear/LB titles, which I would agree it does become repetitive, but I would rather they just make titles account-tied.

Anduin · Sep 04, 2007, 02:48 AM // 02:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pompeyfan

For the terminally stupid who keep bleating that you only need to grind for the vanity items - you don't, you need to grind to get enough points to access certain NPC's who provide useful items AND to improve the new skills in GW:EN it's not just about items and weapons but things to improve gameplay - if it was just about armour I wouldn't care as I can't see anything special about having the most expensive nor do I ever notice or display titles unless they're useful to me.

IMO if points are needed then it should be possible to get all thats required from questing or doing something one time only - it's incredibly poor and lazy game designing for something to require repeating the exact same things in the same areas numerous times and saying it's to add replay value is an extremally lame excuse - replayability comes from finding something different to do, not keeping on repeating the same bloody thing.

Take the Norn rep points for example - to get the max amount you have to repeatadly clear the same areas - it should be possible to earn the max amount of points from just doing each quest and clearing each area ONCE only - moreso as they're character not account based so even with only doing everything once, I'd need to do them 5x as I have 5 characters.

I concur with this. The majority of titles in the other games can be maxed through actually playing the game, not needless repetition. Vanquisher, Cartographer, Guardian, Skill-Hunter and even Sunspear can be maxed just through playing. Some might argue that Sunspear takes grind, but I maxed it before I even finished Vanquishing Nightfall without once farming Sunspear points (ie: all points were achieved while in the act of Vanquishing, or through questing and mapping prior to said Vanquishing act), so they have no leg to stand on.

This is how titles should be achieved, through playing, not constant repetitive action. I have maxed Lightbringer, and it took hours upon hours of doing the same quests over and over again. I cringed when I saw that Eye of the North would have four more titles that would require me to do this. This, for me, is not fun. Yes, I want to max titles. I find that fun. I work for it. I don't have to grind the same area over and over again to farm points to achieve the Vanquisher title. Sure, I may fail and have to redo an area here and there, which can be frustrating, but that is part of the challenge involved. I do not understand why there are these reasonably achievable titles that simply require playing, while there are the completely rediculous titles that require either endless grind, or simply throwing money at them to achieve (money which needs to be grinded for). The worst is the Lucky title, because not only does it require a ludicrous sum of both money and time spent AFk, it also is one of the few that gives an actual benefit. You gain benefit by sitting around doing nothing, while you gain nothing for spending hours clearing areas in hard mode, or beating all of the missions in both difficulties. Am I the only one who sees the stupidity in this?

Point grind isn't challenge, it is monotony. I feel very sorry for those of you who cannot see this one plain, simple truth.

darktyco · Sep 04, 2007, 03:22 AM // 03:22

Diablo: How do you feel the rep grind in GWEN compares to the Sunspear title? I am on the fence about the game, but I might be able to stand it if the grind was slightly less than Sunspear was.

Do you estimate that if you completed all of the quests once you would reach one of the highest ranks, or do you have to repeat stuff over and over to get that high? Thanks...

Diablo™ · Sep 04, 2007, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Nobody reached the highest sunspear rank or lightbringer rank or any rank by doing the standard quests/missions/activity.

The highest tier in any rank is reserved for those who deliberately devote large amounts of time for it. Naturally this would seem like a "grind" for casual players... it should. Thats what it means to Max a title. But in terms of required ranks, like for armors and skills, the reputation points are no different than sunspear/LB points. It takes a few weeks, just like it did for Nightfall.

The highest tier for these reputation points is rank 10, and there are people already at rank 8 in just 4 days!!! Tell me this isn't a bit absurd. That's more than a rank a day! It naturally makes the rest of us feel a bit inadequate, and makes us feel like we need to get our asses out there and grind grind grind just to catch up with these lunatics...

genofreek · Sep 04, 2007, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Let the lunatics be lunatics. I'm going to play at my pace and have fun.

Everyone else should too.

Why is everyone in such a hurry, anyway? The armor's not going anywhere.

cellardweller · Sep 04, 2007, 03:49 AM // 03:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

You either forgot to pick up some bounties on the way or had a runner. I'm barely halfway through and I'm already at the same rank as you, and I skipped alot of side quests as well. That is unless you have higher reputations with other race. It's just highly unlikely that you can complete every single quests/mission/dungeon for the norns and pick up all your bounties on the way and still end up with less than rank 5.

As for second characters, this issue is no different than Sunspear/LB titles, which I would agree it does become repetitive, but I would rather they just make titles account-tied.

Reality disagrees with you. Doing all quests gives you 6700 faction and will take you into all 7 zones about ~3 times each - assuming you kill about 50-60 enemys each time, you'll get around 150 faction per instance after bonuses.

This will give you a total of total of 9850 faction, just enough for slayer of nightmares, and nowhere near slayer of wurms.

darktyco · Sep 04, 2007, 03:51 AM // 03:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

Nobody reached the highest sunspear rank or lightbringer rank or any rank by doing the standard quests/missions/activity.

The highest tier in any rank is reserved for those who deliberately devote large amounts of time for it. Naturally this would seem like a "grind" for casual players... it should. Thats what it means to Max a title. But in terms of required ranks, like for armors and skills, the reputation points are no different than sunspear/LB points. It takes a few weeks, just like it did for Nightfall.

The highest tier for these reputation points is rank 10, and there are people already at rank 8 in just 4 days!!! Tell me this isn't a bit absurd. That's more than a rank a day! It naturally makes the rest of us feel a bit inadequate, and makes us feel like we need to get our asses out there and grind grind grind just to catch up with these lunatics...

Well I didn't ask if it would get you the absolute highest, I asked if it would get you ONE of the highest. Personally, I feel that r7 is one of the highest ranks. But I also feel like you shouldn't need to grind things over and over to get rep either. I think by finishing all the quests you should be able to hit r7 or so. Vanquishing or clearing dungeons to get the rest of the rep doesn't sound too bad to me either, especially compared to killing the same monsters over and over.

Lady Lozza · Sep 04, 2007, 03:55 AM // 03:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anduin

Point grind isn't challenge, it is monotony. I feel very sorry for those of you who cannot see this one plain, simple truth.

I agree with this completely. It's the reason why none of my characters are higher than rank 4 LB. Once again I agree with the fact that SS can - more or less - be maxed with ALL quests and a full Elonian vanquish, but to be honest the idea of vanquishing the entire map on more than one, maybe two characters doesn't appeal to me, at this point in time. The idea of vanquishing doesn't appeal to some people at all.

I reached rank 5 Asura VERY EASILY. I would not consider it to be grind to get it. What I find difficult to understand is that people have claimed to have done the main quest line and ALL the side quests in an area and are NOT EVEN CLOSE. I am not a farmer. I'm not a grinder. I don't have the time to grind. I'm a very casual player. I like to take my time going through the game, I like to see the sights, read/see/experience the lore. After nearly 2.5 years of playing I STILL have not managed to get all the ecto for a set of FoW. I don't farm and trade high end I just can't be bothered with the time and tricks people try to pull, I've not solo'ed or duo'ed FoW since Factions came out - preferring to play instead. So yes, MAXing the title will be grind, but 26k was NOT difficult to get.

Diablo™ · Sep 04, 2007, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by darktyco

Well I didn't ask if it would get you the absolute highest, I asked if it would get you ONE of the highest. Personally, I feel that r7 is one of the highest ranks. But I also feel like you shouldn't need to grind things over and over to get rep either. I think by finishing all the quests you should be able to hit r7 or so. Vanquishing or clearing dungeons to get the rest of the rep doesn't sound too bad to me either, especially compared to killing the same monsters over and over.

That would mean everybody is only 3 ranks away from top tier, just by doing the missions and quests, diminishing the achievement status of the title. But at this point its just a matter of opinion in terms of numbers, you think the quests and missions should yield rank 7, someone else will think it should yield rank 8, others will think it should just yield top tier.

In anycase, wherever the missions or quests leaves us in terms of rank, shows how hard we tried. Not enough? the rest is up to you, have a cup of coffee, whack some monsters, go watch tv, but just don't think you need it by tomorrow... because you don't. There are plenty of other fun stuff to do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Reality disagrees with you. Doing all quests gives you 6700 faction and will take you into all 7 zones about ~3 times each - assuming you kill about 50-60 enemys each time, you'll get around 150 faction per instance after bonuses.

This will give you a total of total of 9850 faction, just enough for slayer of nightmares, and nowhere near slayer of wurms.

Good math, except i do believe I kill at least 80-90 monsters per explorable area, the minimum was 72. Considering that most explorable areas contain an average ove 300 monsters, 50-60 enemies is is almost 1/6th the amount, that would mean I've only explored 1/6th of the map.

Also, you can get 4000 norn points just for wiping out Varajer Fells on a single visit, it's more than enough to boost me up to rank 5 if I wanted to.

cellardweller · Sep 04, 2007, 04:36 AM // 04:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

That would mean everybody is only 3 ranks away from top tier, just by doing the missions and quests, diminishing the achievement status of the title. But at this point its just a matter of opinion in terms of numbers, you think the quests and missions should yield rank 7, someone else will think it should yield rank 8, others will think it should just yield top tier.

You can have all the ranks in the world if it make you happy, people are complaining that unless you grind to them you can't access armour and have less effective skills. If you want to make people happy, keep 10 ranks there, remove the grind for armour and have pve skills single tiered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

In anycase, wherever the missions or quests leaves us in terms of rank, shows how hard we tried. Not enough? the rest is up to you, have a cup of coffee, whack some monsters, go watch tv, but just don't think you need it by tomorrow... because you don't. There are plenty of other fun stuff to do.

Good math, except i do believe I kill at least 80-90 monsters per explorable area, the minimum was 72. Considering that most explorable areas contain an average ove 300 monsters, 50-60 enemies is is almost 1/6th the amount, that would mean I've only explored 1/6th of the map.

Also, you can get 4000 norn points just for wiping out Varajer Fells on a single visit, it's more than enough to boost me up to rank 5 if I wanted to.

Is this an admission that there the game is forcing compulsory grind on casual players?

blue.rellik · Sep 04, 2007, 04:49 AM // 04:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elisa

Just because it needs to be requoted

Diablo™ · Sep 04, 2007, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

You can have all the ranks in the world if it make you happy, people are complaining that unless you grind to them you can't access armour and have less effective skills. If you want to make people happy, keep 10 ranks there, remove the grind for armour and have pve skills single tiered.

It already is. PvE Skills are already potent at r2, and achieving r5 is a walk in the park. This is how it feels for me at least...

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Is this an admission that there the game is forcing compulsory grind on casual players?

Hardly compulsory, and certainly no grind. Wiping out a single explorable area? Too tough? Well then it sounds more like a capability issue. Any poor player can say killing 5 monsters is a "grind".

I whack 100 monsters on my way to do a quest, I didn't break a sweat, didn't take that long, and it was a breeze. If you can manage to skim by all the explorable areas by just killing merely 50 monsters on the way, dodging all the baddies, you're actually making an effort to kill LESS. In that case lower reputation is the only logical result.

Killing 3000 enemies and getting a bazillion reputations is only a grind if you're trying to do it in 4 days. It's not how much you're trying to do, it's how fast you're trying to do it... it's time to slow down.

Navaros · Sep 04, 2007, 05:11 AM // 05:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anduin

I concur with this. The majority of titles in the other games can be maxed through actually playing the game, not needless repetition. Vanquisher, Cartographer, Guardian, Skill-Hunter

This is not really accurate. Skill-hunter requires plenty of grind. Having to go into the same exact zone/mission multiple times in most cases because you are only allowed to make one cap at once (possibly two in some cases, but not usually - and even then it's only 2 of 6 or 2 of 8; so that doesn't reduce grind much). That's presuming the boss you need actually spawns, which in some cases, it doesn't --- which just adds additional grind on top of this. Having to kill the same exact mobs/bosses in your way multiple times with much grinding-induced agony going along with that.

Carto is also a grind, just a grind consisting of hardcore pixel-hunting. Hardcore pixel-hunting is definitely not equal to "playing".

Original poster has a completely valid point too. All the grind-based titles in GW, which is the vast majority of them (maybe only Guardian and Protector aren't) should be account-based. The grind is already ludicrous enough with them being character-based.

A better way to reward players would be based on completing hard areas, ie: getting a Guardian title type of thing. Rather than repeating the same easy task several thousand times, aka GRIND, which is how it is presently.

cellardweller · Sep 04, 2007, 05:19 AM // 05:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

It already is. PvE Skills are already potent at r2, and achieving r5 is a walk in the park. This is how it feels for me at least...

"Finish Him" does 36 damage lasts 9 seconds for R3 and 68 damage and 17 seconds for R8... improvements of 89% for grinders over casual players.
"I am the strongest" does 65 damage at R3 and 126 damage at r8... Thats an improvement of 94% for grinders over casual players.

and these are just the norn shouts with progressions listed on wiki.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

Hardly compulsory, and certainly no grind. Wiping out a single explorable area? Too tough? Well then it sounds more like a capability issue. Any poor player can say killing 5 monsters is a "grind".

Trying to attack my playing ability does not score any points.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

I whack 100 monsters on my way to do a quest, I didn't break a sweat, didn't take that long, and it was a breeze. If you can manage to skim by all the explorable areas by just killing merely 50 monsters on the way, dodging all the baddies, you're actually making an effort to kill LESS. In that case lower reputation is the only logical result.

If I'm at point A and I need to get to point B I'll kill everything in between, I'm not going to cruise around mindlessly slaughtering the natives. Killing things for the sake of some virtual carrot on a stick = grind. You've already said that the minimum you've killed is 76, which means you are going out of your way to kill things for the sake of it - there are <10 jotan between sifhalla and the sepulchre of dragrimmar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

Killing 3000 enemies and getting a bazillion reputations is only a grind if you're trying to do it in 4 days. It's not how much you're trying to do, it's how fast you're trying to do it... it's time to slow down.

You're missing the point, there is only 4 days worth of quests to do which get you to rank 3, after that nothing gets killed unless you're grinding for points so you'll never get any higher than rank 3 unless you grind.